Posted by Correspondence Committee on November 25, 2009 at 12:23:57:
In Reply to: community-based economic democracy posted by William Spademan on November 24, 2009 at 07:41:15:
Just viewed your video...an excellently produced & uniquely-thought out program. Congratulations. We are in agreement on so many areas....but I do have questions I wonder if we can share with The Forum.
Your economic approach to envisioning a democratic society is something fresh & new, which is greatly appealing. It is based on many solid assumptions. That a profit-driven society and economy gives bad results for people and planet. That democracy is a necessary basis for good decision-making because decisions come from the actual and real needs and desires of the people. After all, they/we are the ones who make up our communities and who provide the actual energy & labor to create all the wealth and products we should therefore all enjoy.
In other words, those who create the wealth and have the needs should logically decide how they will best live together in the society they've helped create.
It is the notion of a truly healthy and sustainable
'Commonwealth'. The key words are DEMOCRACY,
COOPERATION and COMMONSENSE.
My question is your use of the word 'profit' and its place in your CommonGood Bank system. To me, it seems you refer to it 'suddenly' and vaguely. It doesn't seem to grow out of the previous discussion but how it fits in is very important.
Why? Because PROFIT is a cornerstone of Capitalism, the system we are now living under.
To create 'profit', exploitation is necessary and so is an underlying system of production, wages, and control. The price of something actually hides the exchange value of it; the 'price' of it...conceals the fact that its true value (what people who do the work have actually created as the goods and services and social-value it) is 'externally' added to a certain amount of 'profit' for the owner of the tool/place where the work is done. Often 2/3 of the 'price' is what the owner takes as prfit. In other words, PROFIT is legalized exploitation- at the point of production- neatly hidden as the 'extra' gift to 'owners'. Those who do and create the wealth get back typically 1/3. Its SYSTEMIC and built into the system. Profit is the illogically-accepted hidden 'extra', the tacked-on goodie, in the price of things, that working people pay to buy back the goods & services they themselves just created. PLUS PROFIT to the owners who have done nothing--- except have all the power to decide, direct, manage and control. Their 'ownership' gives them that power, and that is what creates the 'profit'. PROFIT is a critically necessary part of capitalism.
So, my question is, where would the CGB's 'profits' that you bring in to your program actually come from?
If Capitalist definitions and laws still exist that make PROFIT a necessary part of the economic system, even within a cooperative banking network like CGB, how do we disentangle ourselves from this ultimate
'legal rip-off/? The question, as usual when we talk about democracy really being possible (where we work & where we live, economic & civic democracy) what do you envision as far as Capitalism is concerned? Do you think its necessary to mention the need to 'supercede' or replace it?
I'm intrigued to hear how you think this might work. Is the bank dedicated to relieving us of PROFIT and private ownership/control/plutocracy? If it is, as it seems to be in all other aspects, how do you envision including 'profit' as the way you would sustain the bank? I can understand your shying away from the 'language' of real change, but do you envision a real democracy without it?
Member, PFANS