Posted by David Searles on June 13, 2009 at 08:36:23:
In Reply to: Re: New Society: Value, Exchange and "Money" posted by Lillia Frantin on June 12, 2009 at 10:19:00:
lillia:
I'm intrigued also by your use of the term 'free access' in regards to what I was describing as a kind of barter between individuals.
das:
if I did that it was a mistake. I do not think barter between individuals, collectives, individuals and collectives etc. is free access.
lillia:
For the next several hundred years tho, I'd guess that we'd still be 'limited' by the thought that 'what's fair is for each to contribute to the social wealth & take out only what has been contributed". Call it 'tit for tat' but I think most presently see that as the only fair way to encourage responsible social behavior, and to place in proper context the labor of each--and the very existence/being of each- being valued equally. For some, that's a pettiness we should
avoid; for me, its the real world RIGHT NOW.
das:
agreed but I wouldn't call it a pettiness at all. If I'm to take 5 hours away from my family to go up on a roof to repair a house or building other than my own then I should get something for it roughly equal to the value of my labor more than who is idle. I have no problem with that.
lillia:
As for 'the arts' or things subjectively-valued,
I think its possible they could exist as 'free access'- what I called 'barter/exchange'.
das:
yes, I don't see that as free access unless you choose to give the work it away for free.
lillia:
Maybe that 'answers' the complaint of 'free access-ists' in the Socialist World Forum & of various other
sympatico democratic socialists who mainly disagree & disdain as an anachronism the 'Time-Labor Credit Card accounting system' such as PFANS foresees as the poss- (ible 'transitional remuneration system' of a near-future New Society!
das:
actually I don't see that there ever can be any answer for the WSM except to ignore them. They do not and never will agree that labor should have authority over what it produces. I disagree with that 100%. I think that we think, "oh we agree on so many issues, about getting rid of capitalism and all that -" but the truth is, to me anyway, the only issue is labor having authority over what it produces - collective worker control of the majority of the industrial means of production. and the wsm and the deleonites totally disagree on that issue.